Changemakers LA Podcast: Making Diversion Programs Work for the People
In this episode of Changemakers LA, LISC LA Program Officer Erica Webster delves into the topic of diversion programs. These programs aim to prevent or minimize an individual's involvement with law enforcement or the criminal justice system by providing services such as mental health and substance abuse treatment or housing support. This discussion explores these programs from the viewpoint of participants and social service providers. Additionally, our guests will share insights on the key factors that contribute to the success of diversion programs.
Joining LISC LA for this conversation is:
● Tanu Ah You, Case Manager At Transformational Living Homes, Founder of ALOFA
● Pat Seller, Co-Founder of ALOFA
In this episode, Tanu Ah You shares his inspiring journey to sobriety, reflecting the challenges, victories, and the powerful impact of his experiences with diversion programs and substance use treatment. Throughout his path, he found unwavering support from his friend, Pat, who also joins us on the panel. Pat describes her role as a friend and advocate for Tanu, highlighting how she navigated the delicate balance of holding him accountable while remaining realistic and providing unconditional support. Her perspective offers valuable insights for those supporting loved ones on their sobriety journey.
Our panel consists of two remarkable individuals:
Tanu Ah You serves as a Case Manager at Transformational Living Homes, a reputable sober living and recovery program based in Long Beach. Additionally, he is a Founding Board member at Project ALOFA (Another Loving Opportunity For All), a dedicated organization that advocates for Asian and Pacific Islanders experiencing incarceration and reentry. Tanu's personal experience within the criminal legal system further fuels his passion for helping others, as he currently participates in a diversion program. He believes that his firsthand encounters enable him to form deeper connections with the clients he serves.
Pat Sellers, a close friend of Tanu and Co-founder of ALOFA, has been a community organizer for many years. Over a decade ago, Pat crossed paths with Tanu, and their friendship flourished. When Tanu approached Pat with the idea of launching Project LOAFA, she eagerly embraced the opportunity to make a difference alongside him.
Together, Tanu and Pat bring a wealth of experience and perspectives to our discussion, shedding light on the triumphs and challenges of navigating sobriety, personal growth, and the vital role of support systems in recovery.
If you would like to learn more about how we support place-based initiatives for housing, economic development, and alternatives to incarceration at LISC LA, please visit us online at www.lisc.org/los-angeles and follow us on twitter @LISC_LA.
You can find the rest of the series on iTunes, Spotify, and Google Podcasts. Subscribe to hear more conversations about the people and places that shape Los Angeles.
This podcast was produced in collaboration with Ronnell Hampton, Founder of Growing Greatness Now. Growing Greatness Now is a consulting firm committed to social and environmental justice.
Want to dive into the full transcript? Check it out below!
Erica Webster 00:00
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of the Changemakers LA Podcast, presented by LISC LA. The Changemakers LA Podcast is a tribute to the people, and the policies that make LA neighborhoods good places to live, work, and play.
Erica Webster 00:13
I am Erica Webster, a program officer at LISC LA. I work on our alternatives to incarceration projects, specifically working with community-based organizations in Los Angeles who provide clinical and case management services to justice-involved Angelenos.
Erica Webster 00:30
In today's episode, we're going to talk about diversion programs which are interventions aimed at preventing or reducing a person's contact with law enforcement or the criminal legal system. Instead, they connect them with health and social services, such as mental health treatment, substance use treatment, and housing.
Erica Webster 00:46
We'll be discussing the positive impacts of these programs, as well as the challenges from both the participant and social service provider perspectives. We will also hear from our guests about what helps people be successful within these programs.
Erica Webster 01:00
Today, I'm joined by Tanu Ah You and Pat Sellers. Tanu is a case manager at Transformational Living Homes, which is a sober living and recovery program in Long Beach. He's also a board member at Project ALOFA, another loving opportunity for all, which advocates for Asian and Pacific Islanders experiencing incarceration and reentry.
Erica Webster 01:20
Tanu is a fierce advocate for the formerly incarcerated LGBTQIA+ community as well as the registrant community, who he works with now in his capacity as a case manager.
Erica Webster 01:30
He's also a recent graduate of LA City College and Long Beach City College in the field of addiction studies and behavioral sciences. And he's currently a junior at Cal State Long Beach studying American Studies.
Erica Webster 01:45
As I mentioned, we are also joined by Pat Sellers, who is a former analyst for Farmers and Merchants banks. She has worked with Tanu at Project ALOFA and has been their board chair for 4 years.
Erica Webster 02:00
She's a board member at her church in Cerritos, where she is also a Sunday school teacher. She believes that many deserve more than second chances. And a major reason for her advocacy is seeing the formerly incarcerated folks transform into the men and women they're destined to be. She's also an old friend of Tanu who is joining us today in the capacity of an advocate and Tanu’s support network. We are so happy to have you both.
Pat Sellers 02:31
Thank you
Tanu Ah You 02:33
Thank you.
Erica Webster 02:38
Tanu, beyond your professional experience in the field of social services, and working with those who've experienced incarceration. You have also experienced the criminal legal system firsthand, and are participating in a diversion program right now.
Erica Webster 02:55
First, I want to thank you for your generosity. Also, for sharing your story with us, for discussing your personal experience with diversion programs, and for sharing your professional experience with serving folks who are in similar programs.
Erica Webster 4:05
So I would like to give a background on what a diversion program is, the different kinds, and the purpose they serve. But before we get into that if you could tell us a little bit about your background and your story? I think that would be helpful. Also, I want to note because you are an active participant in a diversion program, we are not going to discuss the specifics of that diversion program. Details like the name, the place, etc. will not be included, but whatever you are comfortable with sharing would be wonderful.
Tanu Ah You 04:42
Thank you to Erica and LISC LA for having me and Pat on. So, I am an addict. I am also somebody who suffers from PTSD and major depression. The use of drugs has been a big part of my story. It has taken me out into the streets time and time again. And the use of drugs and alcohol has put a strain on my relationships with my family members.
Tanu Ah You 05:35
This last go around, I was accused and alleged of elder abuse, assault on an individual, trespassing, and failure to register. All of these things led me into the courtrooms once again and in county jail.
Erica Webster 06:00
I want to talk more about the diversion programs themselves as well as Tanu and Pat's experience with them. But before we get into that, I would love to hear more about you, Tanu. If you would be willing to tell us a little bit of your background, your story, the work that you do now, and how you're doing with school.
Tanu Ah You 06:26
Thank you to Erica and LISC. It's an honor to be here.
Tanu Ah You 06:32
I am in a better place today. I am in a space where I am proud of where I am with my journey. Prior to this, I was in a state where I was going in and out of jail. I was homeless and living on the streets. I was going through my addiction and experiencing relapse after relapse. It was a vicious cycle that was keeping me incarcerated.
Tanu Ah You 07:05
But I'm in a better place today. I just graduated from Los Angeles City College and Long Beach City College, with an emphasis on addiction studies and behavioral sciences. And I'm now attending Cal State Long Beach as a junior, majoring in American Studies. And I am a proud member of the Project Rebound Organization that's on Cal State Long Beach’s campus.
Erica Webster 07:36
Thank you so much for sharing, Tanu. Pat, can you talk a little bit about how you both know each other?
Pat Sellers 07:45
Sure. Again, thank you for having us. Tanu and I met many years ago through a mutual friend.
Pat Sellers 08:00
I tend to help different organizations, and at this time in my life, I was helping a middle school volleyball team. That's how I met Tanu, and knowing I had connections and things like that; he came and spoke to me about Project ALOFA and getting that started. What brought us together was being able to start project ALOFA and the journey that brought.
Pat Sellers 08:40
I consider him family. We've been very close. I've seen him relapse many times. But, he's still someone dear to my heart, and I love him unconditionally. I'm here to support him in everything that he does. And we've been very close, like brother and sister for over 10 years now. Doesn't seem like it, but it has been.
Pat Sellers 09:16
I love seeing where he's come from, and where he is now. Also, how focused he is on making a better life for not only himself but for other people in the community as well. I love his heart and he's such a good person. So, that's pretty much where Tanu and I started, and how I've been a part of his journey for a while now.
Erica Webster 09:55
Thank you so much for sharing.
Erica Webster 09:57
As we go through the questions we'd love to hear from you as someone in his support network. We’d love to hear about what it was like to be supportive. How you interacted with the programs and the challenges you saw from your perspective. So, as we go, if you have anything to add we would love to hear it.
Erica Webster 10:15
I also want to add that Tanu and I have known each other for a long time. We just happened to both participate in a “quest for Democracy Day”, which is something that we and some other organizations put on. They highlight the voices of formerly incarcerated people to push for legislation that supports people coming out of jail or prison. Also, decriminalizing different behaviors to reduce mass incarceration and support healthy and safe communities. That was in 2014, so it's really exciting to get to reconnect with you, Tanu and to get to meet Pat now.
Erica Webster 11:52
Before we get into the meat of the interview. I want to go over a quick introduction about what diversion programs are for anyone listening who might not be familiar.
Erica Webster 12:02
As I mentioned, they are interventions seeking to reduce a person's interaction with the criminal legal system. Ideally, they connect people with services that they might need in terms of health, mental health, housing, etc.
Erica Webster 12:18
There are many different types of diversion programs, and the term gets used in different ways. But, generally speaking, there's usually some sort of incentive in place. If a person completes the program, then there are no further criminal/ legal actions taken. So, for example, there are some programs where law enforcement connects people to services and removes arrests.
Erica Webster 12:40
Sometimes law enforcement can connect folks to services after arrest, but before prosecutors file charges in court. There are some court programs where the judge says “If you complete this program in the community, then your case will be dismissed later down the line”.
Erica Webster 12:59
And then there are also alternative sentencing programs where you might accept a conviction. But, you can complete the program in the community as opposed to being sentenced to jail or prison.
Erica Webster 13:10
Diversion programs are important to address mass incarceration and reduce the total number of people in jails and prisons.
Erica Webster 13:16
In LA County, the jail capacity is about 12,400. But, as of today, there are about 14,000 people incarcerated, and before Covid, it was closer to 17,000.
Erica Webster 13:30
Diversion programs are also key in addressing the community and the individual harm that is caused by these institutions. Of the 14,000 people incarcerated, about 5,600, or 40 percent have a designated mental illness.
Erica Webster 13:42
We know countless studies are showing that being incarcerated negatively exacerbates symptoms of mental illness, and jails are not a place where people can stabilize and get well.
Erica Webster 13:51
As of today, 84 percent of the people incarcerated are black and Hispanic, and we know communities of color are over-policed and over-incarcerated.
Erica Webster 14:00
So, even acknowledging that so much needs to change on the front end to dismantle the system of mass incarceration, the criminalization of unhoused people, and drug use. Also building up alternative crisis response programs, so that police aren't always responding to mental health crisis calls, for example. Diversion programs are still a really important and helpful tool to create pathways out of the criminal legal system.
Erica Webster 14:28
So that's why we're focusing on it today. But we also want to talk about the programs themselves, the promising practices, and also what can be improved.
Erica Webster 14:40
Tanu, in your case, you're actively participating in a court program. I'm curious to learn more about what that experience has been like for you. Both the positive experiences, what the program has helped with, as well as the things that you think could be improved in programs like these.
Erica Webster 15:02
I think the best way to go about doing this is to walk through how the program works chronologically, and I'll ask along the way what worked well and what could have been done better.
Erica Webster 15:16
Pat, I'll turn to you, and feel free to jump in when there's something relevant to your experience as someone supporting someone through these programs.
Erica Webster 15:25
What was the experience like in jail and court? I’m hoping that you can set the scene and describe the experience of where you were when you were first approached about the diversion program. Where were you and what happened when you first started to have this conversation about potentially participating?
Tanu Ah You 15:56
I had been given the opportunity to be diverted into another program when I was waiting on arraignment. It was still a blur. I didn't know exactly what the program entailed.
Tanu Ah You 16:20
I was approached by a district attorney and a mental health clinician. They informed me that I had qualified for the ODR court or diversion program. And so at that point, I was thinking “ Yes, I just want to get out of here. Give me a program. Let me get out”.
Tanu Ah You 16:48
That's all I wanted to do. I said yes to anything, just to get out. I wasn’t considering it to be a gift and some serious making up of my mind that I needed to get the help that I needed.
Tanu Ah You 17:13
The clinician asked me a few questions, and I answered, Yes, that I did have mental health issues. It was obvious that I was still undergoing psychosis with my drug use. They asked if I was homeless, which I had been. I was homeless on the streets, and I didn't care. I was very, very filthy. Jail was a blessing for me.
Tanu Ah You 17:50
My loved ones knew where I was and I was receiving meals and some sleep that I needed. They brought me back into the courtroom, I think, 2 weeks later, and that's when I met the team that I was going to be working with for my diversion program.
Erica Webster 18:20
Thank you for sharing.
Erica Webster 18:23
For you, what was clear? Did you understand what the program would entail at the time?
Tanu Ah You 18:33
I did hear that you needed to have some type of mental health issue and that you needed to be homeless to qualify for this program, which I was at that time.
Tanu Ah You 18:53
So that was clear to me. I didn't understand the other part where housing was an eventual goal. That wasn't clear to me at all. I just knew that they would get me the help that I needed.
Tanu Ah You 19:12
The team that was there was very compassionate and much different from the other encounters that I've had when speaking with a public defender. It was much different having a clinician visit as opposed to your public defender. It was very relieving, and I appreciated that.
Erica Webster 19:38
Thank you. Can you talk about how long it took between being told about the program and being released from jail?
Tanu Ah You 19:50
After the second week, I came in and it was a bit clearer. I was a bit more stable, I was medicated, and I had some sleep. I had the opportunity to understand that the clinicians were seeing that ‘we need Tanu to be better. Not just out of jail. But, Tanu needed to get better and get under the right medications for his mental health. We were going to find housing for him.’
Tanu Ah You 20:20
That's when they shared that the incentive, for me to stay in this program, was to finally be housed and no longer live on the streets, to be under my right medication, and to be a sober man. So, all of these things became clear about 2 months in.
Tanu Ah You 20:47
So, I accepted the program, and upon acceptance of the program, I was informed that I would have to wait for a bed to be available, but Covid hit. When Covid hit, I was stuck inside the jail for another almost 6 months. I was waiting for a bed for that long, and I was isolated in the medical unit waiting for a bed to open up.
Erica Webster 21:30
To clarify some of the things you're referencing. In the program you're involved in now, the goal is to eventually, upon being released from jail, go to an interim housing component? And then the long-term goals to connect clients with permanent support housing?
Tanu Ah You 21:47
That's correct.
Erica Webster 21:50
Also, you mentioned speaking with your public defender versus the clinician. And in talking with you before, you mentioned how it's important to highlight how the path to these programs can be based on individual choices.
Erica Webster 22:15
You mentioned, your first public defender wasn't necessarily very supportive of diversion, and then you had a different one who ultimately connected you with the program. And Pat, I think you were around for this experience. Would you be able to speak about that?
Pat Sellers 22:30
Yes. I never was able to go to court, because it was during Covid and they wouldn't allow outsiders to come in. But the feedback that I was getting from Tanu was that this particular public defender felt he was a lost cause. He felt that he shouldn't get this program or opportunity to get the help he needed to prevent himself from going back to jail. And that's what this program is. Not just getting him housing, but also providing him with multiple services, so that he wouldn't go back to jail.
Pat Sellers 22:20
I know the first one he had wasn't looking out for Tanu's best interest. But somewhere along the way, Tanu got a new public defender, and that's when the doors started opening for him.
Pat Sellers 23:43
It's important when someone is going through these types of things, for them to see that someone representing you may not always have your best interest. And in Tanu’s case, he needed to look out for himself.
Pat Sellers 24:15
Not that public defenders don't want to do what is best for their clients. But, in his case, that was his struggle. When you have someone who's not willing to help, thinks that you don’t qualify, or that you're just a lost cause and you need to go to prison. How is that beneficial for that person's mental health, state of mind, and ability to go out in society and be successful?
Pat Sellers 24:45
For Tanu and I, who have strong faith. We saw doors open that had been closed, and we could only give thanks to the Lord for opening those doors for him. Because had things not changed, he would not be where he's at right now. So, I'm very thankful that the doors were opened for him to be able to qualify for this program that he's in.
Erica Webster 25:18
Thank you for sharing that Pat. Tanu, did you have anything to add?
Tanu Ah You 25:23
That's exactly right. And I failed to mention how that public defender was all about the punitive side and wanted me to go to prison. There was no thought put into the rehabilitative side of my case. I was just this and that. This is where I needed to go, and this is what I needed to do.
Tanu Ah You 25:53
It was all punitive. So, it was a blessing to have this new public defender come in and see me differently. He approached me with, hey, you have this amount of time that you've been good. And focus on the good times versus the bad things that I've done.
Tanu Ah You 26:23
That changed the narrative of everything and I broke down. I called Pat and I said ‘When would you ever find another public defender who praises you for doing well in between stints.’ He was a blessing.
Erica Webster 26:47
Thank you so much for sharing that part of the story.
Erica Webster 26:55
Let's transition to talking about the program itself. The program that you are participating in provides housing and case management services aimed at connecting clients to mental health substance use services, and any other social services that might be missing.
Erica Webster 27:12
I would like to talk with you about your experience with each of these services, beginning with housing. Can you explain, upon release from jail, the setup of the different types of housing that you lived in as part of the program?
Tanu Ah You 27:58
I was released to an agency in downtown Los Angeles. Pat met me there and dropped off some bedding and some clothes for me. I was greeted by the case manager and the house manager who gave me the rundown of the rules. And basically, that was it.
Tanu Ah You 28:30
I was on blackout for, I think, 30 days when I first got there. My mind was not set on staying there. I had already made up my mind that I wanted to leave. But, I never shared that with Pat.
Tanu Ah You 29:00
I was just overwhelmed with what was happening at the home and it was affecting me. The prevalent use of drugs and the lack of enforcing policies and procedures made it too easy to lie and get away with things. So, that was my first experience in my first house.
Tanu Ah You 29:47
Then I got moved. We all moved to another home because our agency moved homes. So, we had to pack up and go to another home in downtown Los Angeles.
Tanu Ah You 30:03
That's where I took flight. I left the program, I relapsed, and I went back to jail.
Erica Webster 30:15
I want to focus on a couple of things you mentioned. First, do you want to explain what blackout is?
Tanu Ah You 30:24
Sure, blackout is when you're not able to leave the premises. You are able to use your phones. You're able to do everything in programming or whatever is available for you to do. But you're not able to leave the program.
Erica Webster 30:40
And the purpose of it is to get accustomed to the routine of the household?
Tanu Ah You 30:48
Yes, right.
Erica Webster 31:05
I also wanted to hold on to something you mentioned. In terms of the drug use at the house and highlighting how many different types of resources are needed for different people's individual needs. For you, I'm hearing that you needed a sober living environment. Whereas the environment that you were staying in while in this house was maybe not that.
Erica Webster 31:33
But at the same time, others might benefit from more of a harm reduction reproach. Where drug use isn't necessarily prohibited as much as monitored and analyzed. With the goal being not to penalize someone for drug use and send them right back into the justice system.
Erica Webster 31:55
But all that to say the environment didn't work for you, but you didn't have another option. Is that fair to say?
Tanu Ah You 32:00
Yeah, that's fair to say. When I got there I knew what was happening. As soon as I got in, my roommate was there and it was out in bed.
Tanu Ah You 32:20
So, I already knew that I was going to use. Because of the addict that I am, I was going to use. Keeping in mind that I knew that this could potentially put me in jail. I did it anyway. We talk about harm reduction, but for me, I'm one of the addicts that can't do harm reduction.
Tanu Ah You 32:40
I'll be right back out on the streets naked, running up and down, and being a terrible menace to our community. For me, having been rearrested was another blessing in disguise, because I could have been dead by now.
Erica Webster 33:12
Yeah, it's really heavy.
Erica Webster 33:15
I think the theme of this conversation so far is the need for multiple chances. Both from the perspective of the original council that you had and then also in this program. And, even though you were rearrested you are now back in the program. Right?
Tanu Ah You 33:34
Yes.
Erica Webster 33:38
That's the only point I had to make. I don't know how to go deeper on that one. But, how important have multiple opportunities been for you?
Erica Webster 34:20
An important element of the program is granting people multiple opportunities to succeed. And I'm just curious, how important that was for you throughout your experience?
Tanu Ah You 34:38
Yeah, having multiple opportunities has given me the chance to be where I'm at today. I needed that last console by the judge. When he said, ‘This is it, you're going to go to prison if you don't get your life straight’.
Tanu Ah You 35:06
I took the recommendations of the district attorney, the public defender, my FSP team, and my ICMS managers. And so I started outpatient with La CoDa. And that's when I received the one-year outpatient treatment that I needed.
Tanu Ah You 35:38
I received the support system. I received the encouragement that I needed to be who I am today. It was a breath of fresh air, because I was able to meet with them Tuesdays and Thursdays at the house because of Covid. And I was able to go out on outings with a sober group on meeting nights and go to things like dodger games. But I had a whole new support group.
Pat Sellers 36:10
Would I be able to address the multiple chances?
Erica Webster 36:14
Yes, please.
Pat Sellers 36:18
From my perspective, Tanu did get multiple chances. But when he came into that house he was told, ‘If you don't come back at night, you're out of the program’. And there were a couple of times when he didn't come back.
Pat Sellers 36:34
But I can tell you that his team called me and said, hey, have you seen him? And I'd say no, but let me see if I can get in touch with him. They were more concerned for his well-being than him not being in the house because he disappeared. And these were times when he had relapsed.
Pat Sellers 36:58
But what positively affected me was their care for him as a person and not as some drug addict on the street that just left. They cared about him enough to say hey, if you know where he's at, call me, and I’ll personally go get him. They were willing to do that.
Pat Sellers 37:25
When he sobered up enough and he called his case worker, they sent an Uber to pick him up and bring him home. This isn't a program that just says that they care, they do care. It is amazing.
Pat Sellers 37:40
He didn't share everything he was told about the program. Just what was important to him at the time he was offered it. But, the program is set up for individuals to have nothing to worry about. They say you need clothes? We can order you clothes. Do you need food? We are here to feed you. We want to give you everything that you need so that you don't need money to go out and work unless it's time for you in your journey to go and do that. They offered schooling, if you wanted to go to college they would pay for that. And Tanu had these experiences.
Pat Sellers 38:29
Though yes, it is truly a program of multiple chances. It is because they care enough to invest in that person and want them to be able to come back and start over. Never once did any of his team give up on him. I can honestly say, whatever his experiences were in the house it had nothing to do with his team and the team wanting him to be successful. I just wanted to share that part.
Erica Webster 39:09
That's wonderful. That sounds like everything we want.
Erica Webster 39:15
I'm going to roughly transition to some other things I want to make sure we have time to talk about. Then we can return to some of the points you're raising Pat. So, apart from housing, the other services the program is meant to connect participants with are substance use treatment and mental health if needed. So I want to talk about access to substance use treatment for you, Tanu.
Erica Webster 39:45
From the point of being released from jail and being in the house, what was the experience of enrolling in substance use treatment like?
Tanu Ah You 39:55
The team worked effortlessly in terms of giving me options for substance use treatment whether it be intensive outpatient or residential. I ran away from the first residence. I'm not going to lie. I ran away, and they took me back into the home.
Tanu Ah You 40:16
That's when they decided to do intensive outpatient, and having them come visit me was the best idea since I was still going to school.
Tanu Ah You 40:26
That helped out. Being able to find a compromise with how they were going to devise and develop my treatment plan. They realized how important school was to me and how disciplined I was when I was in school. The moments when I did relapse, I'd come back and still do well in school.
Tanu Ah You 40:55
So they decided to work on this hybrid plan with me, in terms of getting the outpatient and my school schedule, and that's when it was very strict. It was Monday, Wednesday, and Friday for school and Tuesday and Thursday was outpatient. Saturday was meetings, and Sunday would be my faith day.
Tanu Ah You 41:23
That's when my whole life turned around. When they offered me Substance Use and Drug treatment and upped my medications for my mental health. So, finding and tapering, and finally giving me the correct dosage. Also, I accepted the once-a-month shots and it was a game changer.
Tanu Ah You 41:50
There was night and day with me. Knowing that I was on my medication and that they tritated me to the correct amount because I cried when I was with Pat. I would say, Pat, I'm taking too much and I don't want to be a guinea pig. I don't want to take this just because they're offering it.
Tanu Ah You 42:10
They listened to me and I was very grateful that they did. And now I'm on 2 medications that I love, and I feel like it has helped me tremendously to become a better person.
Erica Webster 42:33
Pat, before I ask for a follow-up. Do you have anything you wanted to add?
Pat Sellers 42:50
To follow up with what Tanu said. He was leery of taking all this medication. He would tell me how it felt, and I told him, you need to speak up and explain how it's making you feel. Tell them you don't feel like yourself, because there are so many other medications out there. One of them will fit your needs. So again, it's important to be an advocate.
Pat Sellers 43:20
Other people don't know your body. They don't know how medications are affecting you, and you have to speak up and say, is there something else, this isn't working for me. Regardless of if you are incarcerated or not incarcerated, I feel it's very important to speak up when it comes to medications. And I supported him in doing that. But, we did have conversations about the best way to approach it.
Pat Sellers 43:52
If you're going to come in and be stubborn, then they are going to insist. So if he would be able to calmly speak to the doctors and explain how he is feeling, then they would have a better understanding of why that medication was or was not best for him.
Erica Webster 44:13
Yeah, thank you for sharing. Just to clarify, we have transitioned into talking about both substance use treatment and mental health treatment.
Erica Webster 44:20
There are a couple of things I'm hearing from these stories. How long did it take for you and your team to figure out the combination of treatments that worked for you both? How long did it take for them to devise the schedule where you're in school, and you're also doing substance use treatment? While also figuring out the kind of medication combination that made you feel like yourself.
Tanu Ah You 45:02
It took about 6 months to get into my medication regimen and 8 months for them to realize that I needed structure. I needed to realize what I wanted and what was making me happy. And it was school. Being in school, being active again, and contributing to my school environment had me feeling worthy again.
Erica Webster 45:50
Hearing that amount of time is fascinating. I imagine it's a pretty relatable experience for folks participating in programs like these to feel unhappy until they figure out what works for them and want to leave, and then do leave.
Erica Webster 46:13
The culmination of being granted multiple opportunities to participate alongside, the continuing process of trying to figure out what works best for an individual person. That just comes across so clearly in what you're talking about.
Erica Webster 46:32
Also, this would be a good time to transition to how that impacts how you work with your own clients. I want to ask an open-ended question about the most helpful parts of the program for you. What helped the most in your opinion?
Erica Webster 47:00
You mentioned that you were involved in a mentorship/ partnership that was impactful. I want to give you the opportunity to talk about it. But, then I also want to know everything that you've experienced thus far. What do you feel have been the most critical components of your being able to be successful?
Tanu Ah You 47:28
Definitely, my substance drug treatment and my mental health. But there was also a mentor that I received from LA CoDa, who was an amazing individual. Somebody who I saw was me and was an open book. He shared his life, and I enjoyed every minute of being with him.
Tanu Ah You 48:05
We got to go to the Dodger game. We got a chance to sit and talk about it. The days when we were both on Santa Monica Boulevard. We didn't stay there, but we went there. We felt it. We lived it together. Then we created plans, and roadways for me to become the person I am and who I always was meant to be. And that is a kind, loving, and compassionate person.
Tanu Ah You 48:40
That's who I saw and I wanted to be this individual. Every week, when he came to see me it strengthened my worthiness. It made me feel better that there was somebody out there who understood me. Someone with who I could be myself unapologetically.
Erica Webster 49:06
Thank you for sharing. This is a good transition into discussing how your lived experience affects how you see your work as a case manager serving folks coming out of jail/ prison.
Erica Webster 49:23
To begin, can you describe the work you do now at Transformational Living Homes?
Tanu Ah You 49:30
Currently, I am their case manager, working with a specific population, their registrant community. Not only the registrant community, but all those who are on the Stop Program 1502 with Geos. These are all parolees being released into our agency.
Erica Webster 49:54
Can you talk about how your personal experience has shaped the way you see yourself as a service provider?
Tanu Ah You 50:05
Being able to understand and having them feel comfortable with where I'm at not only as a counselor but as a peer. I see this community as my community; having lived this experience and understanding the difficulties that arise, and the stereotypes we may encounter.
Tanu Ah You 50:33
I can sit down and process with my clients and express the truth. I can uplift them and encourage them. Letting them know that they're loved, but more importantly, that they are someone. I learned from a good friend of mine to always remember that they are someone's child. And that's the way I look at it.
Tanu Ah You 51:10
There's a point when they're broken, and I was broken. The hardest part about this job is trying to separate my hurt, countertransference, and transference.
Tanu Ah You 52:00
When you think your story was terminally unique, and you're the only one out there that feels that way. And then you get to hear it over and over, it takes a toll on you. But, at the same time, it reminds me why I am needed and why I do the things that I do.
Tanu Ah You 52:27
The community gets judged every day. And I know they just want to feel loved. They just want to feel accepted. That is my community. And I do this work because I love them and because I understand them.
Tanu Ah You 52:52
So sorry.
Erica Webster 52:56
No need to apologize. I just want to say thank you for sharing, for feeling comfortable, and for being vulnerable while talking about this.
Erica Webster 53:05
Witnessing your genuine emotion shows the significance of the words you're saying. There's a lot behind what you're saying, in terms of the people that you're interacting with daily who need the kind of love and support you are showing right now. Thank you.
Erica Webster 53:43
How do you communicate that love and support to the folks that you work with?
Tanu Ah You 53:55
I treat everyone as if they were my brother or sister when they come in here. I treat them with kindness, respect, and with love. It's not about me. It's about them. What can I do to make their day better? What can I do to make it easier for them? And that's how I approach meeting with them every single day.
Tanu Ah You 54:24
I do have the privilege of understanding some of the difficulties, like having to do your annual check-up. These are specifics that are just for the registrant community, like having to update their addresses and re-register. I have this insight because I've lived that experience, and I'm still living this experience. It allows me to have more insight when I'm working with them, and in case managing them.
Erica Webster 55:06
Is there anything you wish you could do to support the folks you work with, or maybe the folks you've been in the programs with, but maybe lack the resources to do?
Tanu Ah You 55: 20
Are you talking about TLH or the program that I am currently at?
Erica Webster 55:25
More universally, are there things missing that you wish as a service provider you could provide? And as a participant, that you could receive?
Tanu Ah You 55:45
One thing that has always been a worry for me and for many others in this community is permanent supportive housing. The difficulties with finding permanent supportive housing, or a place that will accept our community have always been at the forefront when I'm working with the clients, and even with myself.
Tanu Ah You 56:16
I'm going on 2 years into the program, and I still don't have permanent support housing yet. But I'm very hopeful, and I know that there is going to be something out there for me.
Tanu Ah You 56:30
So, I have to be extremely encouraging and hopeful with the clients that I deal with every day. And let them know that there is a community out there that will help us. They will house us. And thankfully I found one home in Transformational Living Home.
Tanu Ah You 56:55
This is an agency where they know that housing-insecure people are people. It is a basic right. And it's something that they advocate for every single day, and I love them to death for that.
Erica Webster 57:20
Thank you so much for sharing. Pat, is there anything from your perspective that you would like to add?
Pat Sellers 57:30
At this point, the only thing I'd like to say is that everybody deserves a second chance. Everybody deserves to be loved. We need to open our hearts to everyone, not just the people in our minds that we think are worthy.
Pat Sellers 58:00
With Tanu, as he said, his struggles have been finding a place that accepts him.
Pat Sellers 58:15
As an example, for my children growing up, I taught them that you need to look everyone in the eye and say hello. You never know what they're going through. When you do that you're validating them as a person, and everybody wants to be validated as a person. I don't care what their background is. They could be homeless. They could be in a gang with tattoos all over the place. We still need to acknowledge them as people.
Pat Sellers 58:44
When you look someone in the eye and you say hello to them, you're acknowledging that they have value. And I think it's important that everybody knows that they have value. Regardless of what your circumstances have been. We've all had struggles in our lives.
Pat Sellers 59:00
As for Tanu, I love him. I know what his past has been, but that's not who he is. Those are things that happen in his life, but it hasn't shaped him to be a different person. He's a good-hearted person.
Pat Sellers 59:20
It's sometimes hard for people to look for the good in people. And it's important that we look at people's hearts, and not what they say or what they look like on the outside. We must see people for who they are, and what their actions are.
Pat Sellers 59:36
Meaning, just because you have an issue with drugs that doesn't mean you're a bad person. But, what brought you to those drugs? They are helping you forget, and that's what's happening. They are forgetting. They're wanting to not think about the things that have hurt them in their past. And so, it's important that we treat everyone on the same level.
Pat Sellers 1:00:00
Show them the same kind of love, no matter what. We are called to love each other, not to hate, not to look at somebody differently because of the way they look on the outside. We are called to love everybody. If that could just take root in our communities, how much better and how much more successful would people like Tanu become?
Pat Sellers 1:00:25
How preventative would that love be in stopping someone from going down those roads and stopping bad things from happening in their lives? When we love each other, we don't hurt each other. It's important.
Pat Sellers 1:00:40
We must validate people and let them know that they are important. Thank you.
Erica Webster 1:00:50
Thank you for saying that. One of the reasons I wanted to talk to you both about the diversion programs is because the programs can structurally create a setup where people can access programs to work within the bureaucracy to access resources. The unspoken key to success that you are both exemplifying is love, recognizing humanity, and recognizing the whole person.
Erica Webster 1:01:20
Those are hard to programmatize. And we rely on mentors and people like Tanu, who are willing to channel their lived experience to support others experiencing similar situations. People who uplift folks that have traditionally been undervalued or abandoned by the systems we have in place. So, thank you for saying all of that.
Erica Webster 1:01:53
Tanu, I want to give you the last word. I don't necessarily have a question, and I'm trying to think of one right.
Erica Webster 1:02:05
Is there anything I haven't asked about that you want to uplift?
Tanu Ah You 1:02:22
I do want to say, throughout this whole ordeal, being in a program has not only brought structure to my life but has allowed me to reconnect with my faith. It has been pivotal for me and imperative for me to give all thanks and glory to God.
Tanu Ah You 1:02:47
It's something that has centered me and has continued to give meaning to my life. And if I can be that beacon of light for somebody else, I'm hoping that I'm shining joy, love, and compassion from my higher power onto others. I hope that we can continue to just be beacons of light to each other.
Erica Webster 1:03:14
Wonderful!
Erica Webster 1:03:20
On my end, I want to thank you both so much for talking with me. Also, for discussing very emotional real topics, and being willing to be so generous and open with your experiences and your hearts.
Erica Webster 1:03:35
I hope this conversation is impactful to those listening. I hope it gives a bit of insight. When we talk about people who are being arrested for being unhoused. The politics around drug use. The policy decisions being made.
Erica Webster 01:03:55
Both of your stories have provided a very real human experience behind those sound bites and talking points. I hope your stories will have an impact. And I am excited for everyone to hear them. I'm grateful for the generosity in your sharing. So thank you so much for doing this.
Pat Sellers 1:04:16
You're welcome. Thanks for having us.
Tanu Ah You 1:04:19
Thank you.
Erica Webster 1:04:20
If you would like to learn more about how we support place-based initiatives for housing and economic development at LISC LA, please visit us online at www.LISC.org/Los-Angeles. And follow us on Twitter @LISC_LA. You can find the rest of the series on iTunes, Spotify, and Google podcasts. Subscribe to hear more conversations about the people and places that shape Los Angeles.
